15 New Messages
Digest #9633
Messages
Tue Jul 2, 2013 12:35 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"N.A. Nada"
Chris, well stated!
That was the point I inadequately was trying to make.
On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 29/06/13 07:39, HAL9000 wrote:
> OSX leaves a fragmented mess on my drive, until I use my friend. Seeing's believing.
To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
though its fine. It defrags as much as it 'needs' to, not to make some
arbitrary plot of the disc layout look nice and neat, to a human.
Bottom line is the system knows what its doing, and defraging by hand is
just a placebo for you really. It makes *you* feel better but doesn't
actually do much good. If anything you are just stressing the hard-disk
unnecessarily...
Chris
>
>> Since OS X regularly defrags, it shouldn't get too badly fragmented, so it should not slow the system down much.
>>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That was the point I inadequately was trying to make.
On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 29/06/13 07:39, HAL9000 wrote:
> OSX leaves a fragmented mess on my drive, until I use my friend. Seeing's believing.
To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
though its fine. It defrags as much as it 'needs&#
arbitrary plot of the disc layout look nice and neat, to a human.
Bottom line is the system knows what its doing, and defraging by hand is
just a placebo for you really. It makes *you* feel better but doesn't
actually do much good. If anything you are just stressing the hard-disk
unnecessarily.
Chris
>
>> Since OS X regularly defrags, it shouldn'
>>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 3:40 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Randy B. Singer" randybrucesinger
On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
> To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
> though its fine.
Once again, you need to read my Web site and follow the links to citations there.
This is an old and outdated argument. No authority espouses it anymore. All one has to do is hang out on a large Macintosh discussion list to hear regularly from folks whose drives are obviously getting on the too full side (but which appear to have lots of free total space available) and they are encountering flaky behavior because that free space isn't available to the OS because it is all fragmented.
Arguing this topic is ludicrous. It's like arguing that the world is flat. As a quote says on my Web site, some folks just won't listen on this topic. So I won't try to change your mind. I just invite everyone to have a look at my Web site and the links offered there:
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
Item #6 and Note#1
____________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
____________
Tue Jul 2, 2013 7:10 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"N.A. Nada"
Randy, which way are you arguing pro or con? That defraging does or does not need to be done manually?
On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
> To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
> though its fine.
Once again, you need to read my Web site and follow the links to citations there.
This is an old and outdated argument. No authority espouses it anymore. All one has to do is hang out on a large Macintosh discussion list to hear regularly from folks whose drives are obviously getting on the too full side (but which appear to have lots of free total space available) and they are encountering flaky behavior because that free space isn't available to the OS because it is all fragmented.
Arguing this topic is ludicrous. It's like arguing that the world is flat. As a quote says on my Web site, some folks just won't listen on this topic. So I won't try to change your mind. I just invite everyone to have a look at my Web site and the links offered there:
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
Item #6 and Note#1
___________________________________________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
___________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
> To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
> though its fine.
Once again, you need to read my Web site and follow the links to citations there.
This is an old and outdated argument. No authority espouses it anymore. All one has to do is hang out on a large Macintosh discussion list to hear regularly from folks whose drives are obviously getting on the too full side (but which appear to have lots of free total space available) and they are encountering flaky behavior because that free space isn't available to the OS because it is all fragmented.
Arguing this topic is ludicrous. It's like arguing that the world is flat. As a quote says on my Web site, some folks just won't listen on this topic. So I won't try to change your mind. I just invite everyone to have a look at my Web site and the links offered there:
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
Item #6 and Note#1
____________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
____________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 8:43 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Patti A Robertson" parpiano
Randy, how does this information apply to SSD drives? Is it the same?
I know you're right about the hard drive issue because I've experienced it, followed your recommendations and gotten things running smoothly again.
Now I have a new machine (10 months old) and just wondered how SSD drives differ from hard drives. I'm obviously an amateur here…
Patti
On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Randy B. Singer <randy@macattorney.com > wrote:
>
> On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
>
> > To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
> > though its fine.
>
> Once again, you need to read my Web site and follow the links to citations there.
>
> This is an old and outdated argument. No authority espouses it anymore. All one has to do is hang out on a large Macintosh discussion list to hear regularly from folks whose drives are obviously getting on the too full side (but which appear to have lots of free total space available) and they are encountering flaky behavior because that free space isn't available to the OS because it is all fragmented.
>
> Arguing this topic is ludicrous. It's like arguing that the world is flat. As a quote says on my Web site, some folks just won't listen on this topic. So I won't try to change your mind. I just invite everyone to have a look at my Web site and the links offered there:
>
> Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
> http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
> Item #6 and Note#1
>
> ___________________________________________
> Randy B. Singer
> Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
>
> Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
> http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
> ___________________________________________
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know you're right about the hard drive issue because I've experienced it, followed your recommendations and gotten things running smoothly again.
Now I have a new machine (10 months old) and just wondered how SSD drives differ from hard drives. I'm obviously an amateur here…
Patti
On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Randy B. Singer <randy@macattorney.
>
> On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
>
> > To *your* perspective the system is a 'fragmented mess'. To the system
> > though its fine.
>
> Once again, you need to read my Web site and follow the links to citations there.
>
> This is an old and outdated argument. No authority espouses it anymore. All one has to do is hang out on a large Macintosh discussion list to hear regularly from folks whose drives are obviously getting on the too full side (but which appear to have lots of free total space available) and they are encountering flaky behavior because that free space isn't available to the OS because it is all fragmented.
>
> Arguing this topic is ludicrous. It's like arguing that the world is flat. As a quote says on my Web site, some folks just won't listen on this topic. So I won't try to change your mind. I just invite everyone to have a look at my Web site and the links offered there:
>
> Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
> http://www.macattor
> Item #6 and Note#1
>
> ____________
> Randy B. Singer
> Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
>
> Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
> http://www.macattor
> ____________
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 9:02 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Randy B. Singer" randybrucesinger
On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:10 PM, N.A. Nada wrote:
> Randy, which way are you arguing pro or con? That defraging does or does not need to be done manually?
This is at least the 6th time that I've said this...read what it has to say on my Web site. All will be answered there. From there you can make up your own mind. That's why I created the site.
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
Item #6 and Note #1
____________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
____________
Tue Jul 2, 2013 9:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Randy B. Singer" randybrucesinger
On Jul 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Patti A Robertson wrote:
> Randy, how does this information apply to SSD drives? Is it the same?
No, it isn't the same at all. I need to update my Web site with regard to SSD's.
You should *never* run a defragmentation program on an SSD. First, it will have no positive effect, because SSD's, even if the data on them is fragmented, aren't negatively effected by fragmentation because addressing is virtually instantaneous since there is no physical read/write head.
Second, the process of defragmentation involves *a lot* of reading, copying, writing, and erasing of data. The media in an SSD is good for a limited number of write/erase cycles. Defragmentation would decrease the life span of your SSD. (Though, in practice, the life span of the latest SSD's is way longer than one is likely to ever have a given drive in service.) Even if lifespan is not in practice a concern, SSD's slow down as the number of write/erase cycles increase. So you definitely want to limit the number of write/erase cycles on your SSD.
See:
http://helpdeskgeek
"For avoidance of doubt, we strongly recommend that you don't try to defragment your SSD-based volumes. The fragmentation issue on SSDs is internal to their implementation, and defragmenting the filesystem would only make matters worse."
http://www.coriolis
I know that someone will bring up hybrid-drives. I don't have specific information on them, but I strongly advice that you not use any disk utilities on a hybrid-drive that don't specifically say that they are for hybrid-drives. And to my knowledge, the only utility that says that it will specifically work with hybrid-drives on Macs is Apple's Disk Utility.
____________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
____________
Tue Jul 2, 2013 2:04 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"ennisart" ennisart
Hi,
I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
John
I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
John
Tue Jul 2, 2013 2:41 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Pat Taylor" pat412255
Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
Sent from my iPad...î…
On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@john-ennis.com > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent from my iPad...î…
On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@john-ennis.
> Hi,
>
> I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 5:13 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"ennisart" ennisart
Thanks Pat. I did not have wifi checked, but i use both wifi and ethernet to connect.
One oddity I found: I created a 9am event in the iCloud and it synced with the iPhone Calendar but at noon, not 9am. Then I added an event on the iPhone calendar for 9am and it synced with the iCloud for 6pm! Neither event appeared on my iMac calendar.
John
--- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups.com , Pat Taylor <pat412@...> wrote:
>
> Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
>
> Sent from my iPad...î…
>
> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
One oddity I found: I created a 9am event in the iCloud and it synced with the iPhone Calendar but at noon, not 9am. Then I added an event on the iPhone calendar for 9am and it synced with the iCloud for 6pm! Neither event appeared on my iMac calendar.
John
--- In macsupportcentral@
>
> Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
>
> Sent from my iPad...î…
>
> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@...
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Tue Jul 2, 2013 5:45 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Pat Taylor" pat412255
All I can think to do is to check that the time is set correctly on both devices & then restart them both. Hold down the home & sleep/wake buttons on the phone at the same time until the Apple logo appears on the screen. Also make sure that the same Apple ID is displayed in Calendar>Preferences>Accounts on your iMac & in the Mail, Contacts, Calendar setting on your iPhone.
On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:13 PM, ennisart <john@john-ennis.com > wrote:
> Thanks Pat. I did not have wifi checked, but i use both wifi and ethernet to connect.
>
> One oddity I found: I created a 9am event in the iCloud and it synced with the iPhone Calendar but at noon, not 9am. Then I added an event on the iPhone calendar for 9am and it synced with the iCloud for 6pm! Neither event appeared on my iMac calendar.
>
> John
>
> --- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups.com , Pat Taylor <pat412@...> wrote:
> >
> > Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad...îÂÂ…>
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:13 PM, ennisart <john@john-ennis.
> Thanks Pat. I did not have wifi checked, but i use both wifi and ethernet to connect.
>
> One oddity I found: I created a 9am event in the iCloud and it synced with the iPhone Calendar but at noon, not 9am. Then I added an event on the iPhone calendar for 9am and it synced with the iCloud for 6pm! Neither event appeared on my iMac calendar.
>
> John
>
> --- In macsupportcentral@
> >
> > Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad...îÂÂ…>
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@...
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 7:18 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"N.A. Nada"
Three hours difference could be a timezone setting.
On Jul 2, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Pat Taylor wrote:
All I can think to do is to check that the time is set correctly on both devices & then restart them both. Hold down the home & sleep/wake buttons on the phone at the same time until the Apple logo appears on the screen. Also make sure that the same Apple ID is displayed in Calendar>Preferences>Accounts on your iMac & in the Mail, Contacts, Calendar setting on your iPhone.
On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:13 PM, ennisart <john@john-ennis.com > wrote:
> Thanks Pat. I did not have wifi checked, but i use both wifi and ethernet to connect.
>
> One oddity I found: I created a 9am event in the iCloud and it synced with the iPhone Calendar but at noon, not 9am. Then I added an event on the iPhone calendar for 9am and it synced with the iCloud for 6pm! Neither event appeared on my iMac calendar.
>
> John
>
> --- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups.com , Pat Taylor <pat412@...> wrote:
> >
> > Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad...îÂÂ…>
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Jul 2, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Pat Taylor wrote:
All I can think to do is to check that the time is set correctly on both devices & then restart them both. Hold down the home & sleep/wake buttons on the phone at the same time until the Apple logo appears on the screen. Also make sure that the same Apple ID is displayed in Calendar>
On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:13 PM, ennisart <john@john-ennis.
> Thanks Pat. I did not have wifi checked, but i use both wifi and ethernet to connect.
>
> One oddity I found: I created a 9am event in the iCloud and it synced with the iPhone Calendar but at noon, not 9am. Then I added an event on the iPhone calendar for 9am and it synced with the iCloud for 6pm! Neither event appeared on my iMac calendar.
>
> John
>
> --- In macsupportcentral@
> >
> > Have you checked to see that iCloud is properly set up on both the phone & iMac? Be sure that the Contacts & Calendar tabs are turned on in the settings of each device. Also, with the phone cabled to your iMac, be sure that the WiFi sync tab is checked under Options on the Summary page.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad...îÂÂ…>
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:04 PM, ennisart <john@...
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have an iPhone4 (iOS6.1.3), and use OS10.6 on an iMac. I connect them via cable (not bluetooth), and they initially synced contacts and calendar, but now they don't. Somewhere along the line I switched from direct syncing to the iCloud. Not sure if that created the problem.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 3:32 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Carol" were_koala
--- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups.com , Otto Nikolaus <otto.nikolaus@...> wrote:
>
> If you install Flip4Mac, they should play with QT.
> <https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/17787/flip4mac >
Thank you, but that doesn't work either. Maybe the Mac doesn't read files correctly from a PC formatted thumb drive?
>
> If you install Flip4Mac, they should play with QT.
> <https://www.
Thank you, but that doesn't work either. Maybe the Mac doesn't read files correctly from a PC formatted thumb drive?
Tue Jul 2, 2013 4:02 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Christopher Collins" cjc1959au
My best guess would be that they are wma files with DRM.
Microsoft loves it's DRM.
cjc
On 03/07/2013, at 8:32 AM, Carol <botteron@alum.mit.edu > wrote:
> --- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups.com , Otto Nikolaus <otto.nikolaus@...> wrote:
> >
> > If you install Flip4Mac, they should play with QT.
> > <https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/17787/flip4mac >
>
> Thank you, but that doesn't work either. Maybe the Mac doesn't read files correctly from a PC formatted thumb drive?_,_._,___
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Microsoft loves it's DRM.
cjc
On 03/07/2013, at 8:32 AM, Carol <botteron@alum.
> --- In macsupportcentral@
> >
> > If you install Flip4Mac, they should play with QT.
> > <https://www.
>
> Thank you, but that doesn't work either. Maybe the Mac doesn't read files correctly from a PC formatted thumb drive?_,_._,
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Jul 2, 2013 5:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Randy B. Singer" randybrucesinger
On Jul 2, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Christopher Collins wrote:
> My best guess would be that they are wma files with DRM.
Microsoft also loves proprietary file formats.
____________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattor
____________
Tue Jul 2, 2013 8:27 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"caribsea@bellsouth.net" caribsea@bellsouth.net
I don't know if it's Mail itself or something with at&t/bellsouth but I haven't been getting email in Mail. I receive email to my gmail.com address and email to my bellsouth does arrive in AT&T Webmail. In System Preferences>Accounts, my passwords have disappeared from both accounts and when I type them in, they disappear when I leave the page. I'm totally baffled. I hope somebody has a suggestion.
Willi
OS X Lion
iMac mid 2010 21.5"
iPad2
G4PB OS X 10.5.8
Willi
OS X Lion
iMac mid 2010 21.5"
iPad2
G4PB OS X 10.5.8
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