Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: Somewhat OT: Where is iCloud data kept From: ed-reiff
- 2.1.
- Re: Finder alternative From: Jurgen Richter
- 2.2.
- Re: Finder alternative From: Jim McGarvie
- 2.3.
- Re: Finder alternative From: Jim McGarvie
- 3a.
- Re: VLC Player 2.0 due out soon From: Tod Hopkins
- 3b.
- Re: VLC Player 2.0 due out soon From: Chris Jones
- 4a.
- Audio Editor Help From: LouisD
- 4b.
- Re: Audio Editor Help From: Tod Hopkins
- 4c.
- Re: Audio Editor Help From: Bill B.
- 4d.
- Re: Audio Editor Help From: LouisD
- 4e.
- Re: Audio Editor Help From: LouisD
- 4f.
- Apple Mail From: Tom Guenthner
- 4g.
- Re: Apple Mail From: Barry Austern
- 4h.
- Re: Apple Mail From: Randy B. Singer
- 5a.
- Blu-ray video Playback on Mac From: Tod Hopkins
- 5b.
- Re: Blu-ray video Playback on Mac From: Harry Flaxman
- 5c.
- Re: Blu-ray video Playback on Mac From: Tod Hopkins
- 5d.
- Re: Blu-ray video Playback on Mac From: Denver Dan
- 6.1.
- WiFi From: Richard Stein
- 7a.
- Internal Hard Drives From: D. Brett Woods
- 7b.
- Re: Internal Hard Drives From: Jim Saklad
- 7c.
- Internal Hard Drives From: D. Brett Woods
- 7d.
- Re: Internal Hard Drives From: Harry Flaxman
- 7e.
- Re: Internal Hard Drives From: Robert Buscaglia
- 7f.
- Re: Internal Hard Drives From: N.A. Nada
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: Somewhat OT: Where is iCloud data kept
Posted by: "ed-reiff" ed@reiff.com ed-reiff
Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:52 am (PST)
--- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups. , michael kaplan <view@...> wrote:com
>
> Whether we talk about it or not, there is, however, an interface
> between technology, economy and politics that is real and affects all
> of us in our work. And surely it is talked about somewhere and at some
> level by those who determine what technological tools we use, and
> matters of how, when and where. We (the users) are just not usually
> privy to those discussions.
>
> Huge amounts of what I consider important (text and image) material in
> my fields of interest have disappeared in the 20-year period I've been
> using computers and the internet. For example, two private stores of
> information (texts and images) have disappeared because the 'owners'
> abruptly decided not to continue providing server space. Couldn't Wiki
> in its entirety be terminated at some point -- without any prior
> notice? Another archive of information lost thousands of its images
> because servers like Flickr began to remove them. All gone. So we may,
> indeed, be living in a period of time that will have no obvious
> recorded history.
>
> I say obvious because many of us still keep physical artifacts apart
> from our computers. That material may, in the end, prove more valuable
> than what is stored digitally.
>
> Michael
> Macintosh 128K
> iBook G4
>
I agree, if you do not maintain a physical copy of your date and only rely on a cloud version, you are taking a big gamble. If you rely on only your local data and local copy of that data you are also taking a big chance of theft and or fire.
Ed
- 2.1.
-
Re: Finder alternative
Posted by: "Jurgen Richter" yahoo-1@sympatico.ca epsongroups
Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:07 am (PST)
Or click the 3rd icon in the 'view pane' in any Finder window to get
"Column View" where you can drag between folders within the columns
within one window...
===
> It has been a while since I gave up on Finder (except for where the
OS forces its use), but as I recall my primary difficulties were lack of
Explorer-like side-by-side windows (for dragging and dropping),
Just open two Finder windows, and place them side by side.... Or am I
missing something here ...
- 2.2.
-
Re: Finder alternative
Posted by: "Jim McGarvie" jim@mcgarvie.us jgarv2002
Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:42 pm (PST)
Thanks for all the good suggestions, everyone. I'm encouraged that I most folks seem to like Finder just fine, and with these suggestions I'm sure I can make it work for me as well.
On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:07 AM, Jurgen Richter wrote:
Or click the 3rd icon in the 'view pane' in any Finder window to get
"Column View" where you can drag between folders within the columns
within one window...
===
> It has been a while since I gave up on Finder (except for where the
OS forces its use), but as I recall my primary difficulties were lack of
Explorer-like side-by-side windows (for dragging and dropping),
Just open two Finder windows, and place them side by side.... Or am I
missing something here ...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 2.3.
-
Re: Finder alternative
Posted by: "Jim McGarvie" jim@mcgarvie.us jgarv2002
Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:59 pm (PST)
Thanks, Randy. I'll check those out.
On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
On Feb 13, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Jim McGarvie wrote:
> But it is probably "pilot error" and lack of familiarity.
You might benefit from an online tutorial on how to use OS X.
Fortunately, there are some nice free ones.
Mac 101: Mac Essentials
<http://support.apple.com/ >kb/HT2477
Finder View Options video
http://is.gd/tKReLV
Tutorial Series: Lion From Scratch:
http://typicalmacuser.com/wordpress /?s=lion+ from+scratch
_____________________ _________ _________ ____
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts. html
_____________________ _________ _________ ____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 3a.
-
Re: VLC Player 2.0 due out soon
Posted by: "Tod Hopkins" hoplist@hillmanncarr.com todhop
Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:16 am (PST)
That would be big news if it could play Blu-ray on Mac. I'm skeptical.
From the changelog:
* Experimental Blu-Ray Discs support using libbluray
BTW, 1.1.2 was said to be Blu-ray capable with a tweak. Also not clear if this will be Lion only.
Release candidate:
http://download.videolan. org/pub/testing/ vlc-2.0.0- rc1/macosx/
On Feb 14, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Denver Dan wrote:
> Howdy.
>
> The VideoLAN people who create VLC Media Player, have a new VLC 2.0
> coming out shortly.
>
> There are many online reports about this so a quick Yahoo or Google
> search should produce details.
>
> The interface is said to be a complete redesign.
>
> Version 2.0 is said to support playing BluRay videos.
>
> It might be out this week.
>
> Denver Dan
>
Tod Hopkins
Hillmann & Carr Inc.
todhopkins@hillmanncarr.com
- 3b.
-
Re: VLC Player 2.0 due out soon
Posted by: "Chris Jones" jonesc@hep.phy.cam.ac.uk bobstermcbob
Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:22 am (PST)
Hi,
libbluray on its own only provides the ability to navigate a blu ray
disk. It does *not* provide the ability to decrypt commercial blu rays
with AACS or BD+ encryption
http://www.videolan.org/developers/ libbluray. html
so don't get your hopes up that this will provide a free solution to
watching blu ray files on OSX...
Chris
On 14/02/12 16:16, Tod Hopkins wrote:
> That would be big news if it could play Blu-ray on Mac. I'm skeptical.
>
>> From the changelog:
> * Experimental Blu-Ray Discs support using libbluray
>
> BTW, 1.1.2 was said to be Blu-ray capable with a tweak. Also not clear if this will be Lion only.
>
> Release candidate:
>
> http://download.videolan. org/pub/testing/ vlc-2.0.0- rc1/macosx/
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Denver Dan wrote:
>
>> Howdy.
>>
>> The VideoLAN people who create VLC Media Player, have a new VLC 2.0
>> coming out shortly.
>>
>> There are many online reports about this so a quick Yahoo or Google
>> search should produce details.
>>
>> The interface is said to be a complete redesign.
>>
>> Version 2.0 is said to support playing BluRay videos.
>>
>> It might be out this week.
>>
>> Denver Dan
>>
>
> Tod Hopkins
> Hillmann& Carr Inc.
> todhopkins@hillmanncarr.com
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------- --------- ------
>
> Group FAQ:
> <http://www.macsupportcentral. >com/policies/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
- 4a.
-
Audio Editor Help
Posted by: "LouisD" lou@loudina.com ldina
Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:15 am (PST)
Is there a native audio editor supplied with OSX, iLife, iWork, etc? I'm on OSX 10.6.8.
All I really want to do is edit existing mp3 songs, chop off clapping clapping and noise at the beginning and end of songs, perhaps do some fade in - fade out. That's all I need.
Is there anything native to OSX that does this? If not, is there a free shareware program, easy to use, that will do this?
Thx,
Lou Dina
- 4b.
-
Re: Audio Editor Help
Posted by: "Tod Hopkins" hoplist@hillmanncarr.com todhop
Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:32 am (PST)
Maybe...
iMovie can probably import and export MP3. If not, maybe AIFF (use iTunes to convert). Picture editors are also sound editors.
Audacity is free, open source. It is excellent and powerful though maybe a bit intimidating.
Garage Band?
Cheers,
tod
On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:14 PM, LouisD wrote:
> Is there a native audio editor supplied with OSX, iLife, iWork, etc? I'm on OSX 10.6.8.
>
> All I really want to do is edit existing mp3 songs, chop off clapping clapping and noise at the beginning and end of songs, perhaps do some fade in - fade out. That's all I need.
>
> Is there anything native to OSX that does this? If not, is there a free shareware program, easy to use, that will do this?
>
> Thx,
>
> Lou Dina
>
>
Tod Hopkins
Hillmann & Carr Inc.
todhopkins@hillmanncarr.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 4c.
-
Re: Audio Editor Help
Posted by: "Bill B." bill501@mindspring.com kernos501
Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:41 am (PST)
At 5:14 PM +0000 2/14/12, LouisD wrote:
>Is there a native audio editor supplied with OSX, iLife, iWork, etc? I'm on OSX 10.6.8.
>
>All I really want to do is edit existing mp3 songs, chop off clapping clapping and noise at the beginning and end of songs, perhaps do some fade in - fade out. That's all I need.
>
>Is there anything native to OSX that does this? If not, is there a free shareware program, easy to use, that will do this?
Audacity
Bill B
- 4d.
-
Re: Audio Editor Help
Posted by: "LouisD" lou@loudina.com ldina
Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:32 pm (PST)
Thanks folks. I'll give Audacity a try.
Lou
--- In macsupportcentral@yahoogroups. , "Bill B." <bill501@...com > wrote:
>
> At 5:14 PM +0000 2/14/12, LouisD wrote:
> >Is there a native audio editor supplied with OSX, iLife, iWork, etc? I'm on OSX 10.6.8.
> >
> >All I really want to do is edit existing mp3 songs, chop off clapping clapping and noise at the beginning and end of songs, perhaps do some fade in - fade out. That's all I need.
> >
> >Is there anything native to OSX that does this? If not, is there a free shareware program, easy to use, that will do this?
>
> Audacity
>
> Bill B
>
- 4e.
-
Re: Audio Editor Help
Posted by: "LouisD" lou@loudina.com ldina
Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:55 pm (PST)
Audacity works great...a LOT more than I wanted or needed, but it's nice to have if I decide to get more involved. I found it pretty easy to lop off clapping, introductions, fade in & out, and save an mp3 at my desired quality.
Thanks again,
Lou
- 4f.
-
Apple Mail
Posted by: "Tom Guenthner" tom@aye.net tomguenthner
Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:59 pm (PST)
Hi Folks,
Does anyone know if Apple Mail has a limit on how many one can send a mass mail messagr to.
I used to be able to send about 110 , now I can't.
Any Ideas?
Tom
- 4g.
-
Re: Apple Mail
Posted by: "Barry Austern" barryaus@fuse.net barryaus
Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:12 pm (PST)
At 7:59 PM -0500 2/14/12, Tom Guenthner wrote:
>
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>Does anyone know if Apple Mail has a limit on how many one can send
>a mass mail messagr to.
>I used to be able to send about 110 , now I can't.
My guess is that it is not the application on your Mac but your ISP's
SMTP server that has imposed a limit. Furthermore, it is possible
that it is not the number of recipients but, maybe a total volume of
bits and bytes, so maybe you could send 110 copies of a short message
but fewer of a longer one.
--
Barry Austern
barryaus@fuse.net
- 4h.
-
Re: Apple Mail
Posted by: "Randy B. Singer" randy@macattorney.com randybrucesinger
Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:36 pm (PST)
On Feb 14, 2012, at 4:59 PM, Tom Guenthner wrote:
> Does anyone know if Apple Mail has a limit on how many one can send
> a mass mail messagr to.
> I used to be able to send about 110 , now I can't.
Probably an ISP limitation.
I use this to send out my newsletter to over 9,000 subscribers at one
time. It bypasses my ISP's mail server:
Direct Mail
http://directmailmac.com/
_____________________ _________ _________ ____
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts. html
_____________________ _________ _________ ____
- 5a.
-
Blu-ray video Playback on Mac
Posted by: "Tod Hopkins" hoplist@hillmanncarr.com todhop
Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:23 am (PST)
I plan to test Blu-ray playback with the new VLC release soon. As far as I can tell, the only other option for direct playback of any kind is Mac Blu-ray Player (by MacGo, commercial) which I will compare.
Any other options for direct playback? I'm not interested in extraction or conversion. That's much easier. I need to playback Blu-ray as authored, with menus, subtitles, etc...
Cheers,
tod
Tod Hopkins
Hillmann & Carr Inc.
todhopkins@hillmanncarr.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 5b.
-
Re: Blu-ray video Playback on Mac
Posted by: "Harry Flaxman" harry.flaxman@me.com hflaxman001
Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:54 am (PST)
On 2/14/2012 12:23 PM, Tod Hopkins wrote:
> I plan to test Blu-ray playback with the new VLC release soon. As far as I can tell, the only other option for direct playback of any kind is Mac Blu-ray Player (by MacGo, commercial) which I will compare.
>
> Any other options for direct playback? I'm not interested in extraction or conversion. That's much easier. I need to playback Blu-ray as authored, with menus, subtitles, etc...
I believe that one still needs the proper hardware to decode and
navigate a blu-ray disc.
Also, blu-ray r/w and r are so expensive that they are pretty
prohibitive as a cost efficient storage medium.
Harry
- 5c.
-
Re: Blu-ray video Playback on Mac
Posted by: "Tod Hopkins" hoplist@hillmanncarr.com todhop
Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:20 am (PST)
True, but all relative. I have had the facility to make an authored Blu-ray disc for years. However, while you can make a Blu-ray Movie (aka BDMV) on a Mac, you can't play it.
Burners can be had for $100 and work fine in Mac Pros or as external with an aftermarket case (OWC). I recommend using a FW though.
Stock has come down quite a bit, and if you need it, you need it. I need it. I routinely store on BD-R single and double layer (25and 50GB) discs. Single layer BD-R is now well below $2 in spindle quantities which makes them competative with high quality DVD stock per GB. Dual-layer 50GB are squeezing down to the $5 mark. Certainly not prohibitive.
The burn time is more costly than the stock. Takes a long time to burn 25GB. ;)
Cheers,
tod
On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Harry Flaxman wrote:
> On 2/14/2012 12:23 PM, Tod Hopkins wrote:
> > I plan to test Blu-ray playback with the new VLC release soon. As far as I can tell, the only other option for direct playback of any kind is Mac Blu-ray Player (by MacGo, commercial) which I will compare.
> >
> > Any other options for direct playback? I'm not interested in extraction or conversion. That's much easier. I need to playback Blu-ray as authored, with menus, subtitles, etc...
>
> I believe that one still needs the proper hardware to decode and
> navigate a blu-ray disc.
>
> Also, blu-ray r/w and r are so expensive that they are pretty
> prohibitive as a cost efficient storage medium.
>
> Harry
>
>
Tod Hopkins
Hillmann & Carr Inc.
todhopkins@hillmanncarr.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 5d.
-
Re: Blu-ray video Playback on Mac
Posted by: "Denver Dan" denver.dan@verizon.net denverdan22180
Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:35 am (PST)
Howdy.
I use BluRay BD-RE discs regularly now for data archives.
The BD-RE term means a re-writable disc (if it were a DVD it would be
termed DVD-RW, but "RE" is used for BD discs).
Label capacity is 25 GB but actual capacity is about 22 GB.
I've found BD-RE discs online for about $3.50 per blank disc. Depends
on brand and where you shop, of course.
But since you can store approximately the equivalent of 6 ½ DVD SL
discs of data on one BD-RE the price has become competitive. Then
deduct the value of your time to burn 6 to 7 DVDs or 1 BD-RE and you
have a better comparison.
For BD media, what is still exorbitantly expensive is the BD-RE DL.
BluRay Re-Writable Double-Layer.
Label capacity is 50 GB but actual capacity is about 46 GB. These can
cost a lot each. I've seen them priced online from $18.50 to $35.00
each these days.
One BD-RE DL disc can hold roughly the equivalent of 10 ½ DVD-R discs.
Denver Dan
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:53:44 -0500, Harry Flaxman wrote:
> On 2/14/2012 12:23 PM, Tod Hopkins wrote:
>> I plan to test Blu-ray playback with the new VLC release soon. As
>> far as I can tell, the only other option for direct playback of any
>> kind is Mac Blu-ray Player (by MacGo, commercial) which I will
>> compare.
>>
>> Any other options for direct playback? I'm not interested in
>> extraction or conversion. That's much easier. I need to playback
>> Blu-ray as authored, with menus, subtitles, etc...
>
> I believe that one still needs the proper hardware to decode and
> navigate a blu-ray disc.
>
> Also, blu-ray r/w and r are so expensive that they are pretty
> prohibitive as a cost efficient storage medium.
>
> Harry
- 6.1.
-
WiFi
Posted by: "Richard Stein" richardstein@ymail.com richardstein@ymail.com
Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:09 am (PST)
From: Richard Stein, richardstein@ymail.com
To: macsupportcentral@ yahoogroups.com
Date: 14 Feb 2012
Hi,
First, although I have been using a Mac mini on Tiger since about 2006, I am a dead-ringer for a computer ludite. Now, I have a baffling problem since buying an iMac about a month ago.
About a week ago I installed (to my sorrow?) the Chrome browser. Suddenly this new thing happens. Using WiFi on my iMac, Chrome says I can't connect to the internet. Zigzagging between Chrome and Safari on the iMac fails multiple times.
So, I go to my old Mac mini & wow, I get online first shot with Safari. Now I go back to my iMac and now Chrome gets my iMac online 1st shot!
What am I doing wrong? Why does my Mac mini regularly hook to WiFi and my iMac regularly fails?
Richard
iMac + Mac mini
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 7a.
-
Internal Hard Drives
Posted by: "D. Brett Woods" brettlyw@mac.com brettlyw
Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:13 pm (PST)
I have a desktop iMac. Late 2009 model. 2 TB hard drive.
It is getting full.
Is there a larger hard drive that I can put in that any of you experts would say is okay and recommend?
Thanks!
Brett
- 7b.
-
Re: Internal Hard Drives
Posted by: "Jim Saklad" jimdoc@me.com jimdoc01
Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:51 pm (PST)
> I have a desktop iMac. Late 2009 model. 2 TB hard drive.
> It is getting full.
>
> Is there a larger hard drive that I can put in that any of you experts would say is okay and recommend?
> Brett
I would seriously consider off-loading some of the bulky data to an external drive.
What is filling up those 2TB?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Jim Saklad mailto:jimdoc@me.com
- 7c.
-
Internal Hard Drives
Posted by: "D. Brett Woods" brettlyw@mac.com brettlyw
Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:16 pm (PST)
I have mostly movies and a large iTunes library on the disk.
I have Apple TV and and iPad. I just want to be able to get to everything.
------
I have a desktop iMac. Late 2009 model. 2 TB hard drive.
It is getting full.
Is there a larger hard drive that I can put in that any of you experts would say is okay and recommend?
Thanks!
Brett
- 7d.
-
Re: Internal Hard Drives
Posted by: "Harry Flaxman" harry.flaxman@me.com hflaxman001
Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:55 pm (PST)
On 2/14/2012 9:13 PM, D. Brett Woods wrote:
> I have a desktop iMac. Late 2009 model. 2 TB hard drive.
>
> It is getting full.
>
> Is there a larger hard drive that I can put in that any of you experts would say is okay and recommend?
>
> Thanks!
IMO, I wouldn't get an internal over 1TB. I personally use an array of
external drives in addition to a 500gb internal. Works well for me.
All media files are on one external, one partition. Two partitions on
an external are for clone and Time Machine backups. A third external is
to store miscellaneous items such as installers that I might need, etc.
2tb is just too much for me to lose at one time, should it fail. Media
should be separate of the operating system anyway.
Harry
- 7e.
-
Re: Internal Hard Drives
Posted by: "Robert Buscaglia" rbuscag@yahoo.com rbuscag
Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:08 pm (PST)
This may be a stupid question but, do all the externals have to be connected at all times or can they be stored and used when needed just like floppy diskettes back in the day?
Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 14, 2012, at 9:54 PM, Harry Flaxman <harry.flaxman@me.com > wrote:
> On 2/14/2012 9:13 PM, D. Brett Woods wrote:
> > I have a desktop iMac. Late 2009 model. 2 TB hard drive.
> >
> > It is getting full.
> >
> > Is there a larger hard drive that I can put in that any of you experts would say is okay and recommend?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> IMO, I wouldn't get an internal over 1TB. I personally use an array of
> external drives in addition to a 500gb internal. Works well for me.
> All media files are on one external, one partition. Two partitions on
> an external are for clone and Time Machine backups. A third external is
> to store miscellaneous items such as installers that I might need, etc.
>
> 2tb is just too much for me to lose at one time, should it fail. Media
> should be separate of the operating system anyway.
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
> TODAY(Beta) ̢ۢ Powered by Yahoo!
> Moving photos of Justin Bieber's good deed
> A far-fetched Facebook campaign gets a happy ending for a sick little girl.
> Privacy Policy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 7f.
-
Re: Internal Hard Drives
Posted by: "N.A. Nada" whodo678@comcast.net
Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:08 pm (PST)
I agree with Harry, use an array of drives. I use a Drobo to store my movies. Currently it is configured as a 2TB RAID.
I also use a hard drive dock, and use a bunch of bare internal drives with it. If you want it to be bootable, you probably want it to be FW. WeibeTech makes some good ones, or look at BlacX.
Brent
On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:08 PM, Robert Buscaglia wrote:
> This may be a stupid question but, do all the externals have to be connected at all times or can they be stored and used when needed just like floppy diskettes back in the day?
>
> Bob
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 14, 2012, at 9:54 PM, Harry Flaxman <harry.flaxman@me.com > wrote:
>
>
> > IMO, I wouldn't get an internal over 1TB. I personally use an array of
> > external drives in addition to a 500gb internal. Works well for me.
> > All media files are on one external, one partition. Two partitions on
> > an external are for clone and Time Machine backups. A third external is
> > to store miscellaneous items such as installers that I might need, etc.
> >
> > 2tb is just too much for me to lose at one time, should it fail. Media
> > should be separate of the operating system anyway.
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